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Oz_Sk8_Mum · Moderator Joined: 22 Dec 2008 Posts: 151 Location: Sydney

Los Angeles. USA. 23 - 29 Mar 2009.

For reference, here are the countries with multiple spots:

3 Men: Canada, Japan, USA
2 Men: Belgium, France, Russia, Sweden, Switzerland

3 Ladies: Japan
2 Ladies: Canada, Finland, Italy, Republic of Korea, Switzerland, USA

3 Pairs: Canada, China, Germany, Russia
2 Pairs: Ukraine, USA

3 Dance: France, USA
2 Dance: Canada, Great Britain, Israel, Italy, Russia

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Oz_Sk8_Mum
I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

When are they deciding who goes to Worlds?

I assume that Dani & Greg are a given (particularly after their good performance last year).

Oz_Sk8_Mum · Moderator Joined: 22 Dec 2008 Posts: 151 Location: Sydney

jctm · Joined: 10 Jan 2009 Posts: 5

well because 4 Continents will be the decider, i think daniel & Greg will be going to worlds as they have been improving all the time, but should be close with maria & Evgueni.
The Ladies, this going to be close between Tina & cheltzie, I think I would probably go for Tina, only because she has the experience at competing at these type of competitions, I think Cheltzie has better jumps and may just get past the post on technical.... very close. Jessica K is not in the same league, but will be great experience for her.
The boys, I mean men, well for starters we don't know who will be the TBA spot, and probably won't be filled, so lets say between Nick and Mark. Well these two skaters have been neck and neck through out there skating career's with mainly Nick taking out most of the National title's, just have to go back to AYOF very close.
I haven't see them skate since Nationals, where they both skated very poor, Mark Skated nebelhorn and got a poor 97 and Nick skated RSA JGP and got 85 which was very poor for nick's standard.
I know Mark has been in Canada for most of 2008 and is still there, and I don't know what Nick has been up to, so my prediction, well i would like to see Mark go to Worlds as I like his skating skills, but its going to be close again, as Nick is a very fine skaters as well

isk8junkie · Mastering Loop Joined: 20 Jan 2009 Posts: 37

jctm wrote:

icecracks · Mastering Salchow Joined: 10 Jan 2009 Posts: 23

Oz_Sk8_Mum · Moderator Joined: 22 Dec 2008 Posts: 151 Location: Sydney

[quote="icecracks"]

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

isk8junkie · Mastering Loop Joined: 20 Jan 2009 Posts: 37

icecracks wrote:

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

I just had a look at the results from Nationals. I am not sure how you can accuse the judges of overmarking Tina over Allie in the PCS because generally Allie's PCS were higher. Tina's higher mark was in the technical score in the Freeskating which is based on GOE. Unless you are saying that the judges didn't give enough negative GOEs.

So if you are going to accuse judges of manipulating to favour Tina you had better be careful because at a glance I didn't see it and the proof is there in B&W.

isk8junkie · Mastering Loop Joined: 20 Jan 2009 Posts: 37

AS I STATED IN MY PREVIOUS POST: That is MY opinion.

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

Oz_Sk8_Mum · Moderator Joined: 22 Dec 2008 Posts: 151 Location: Sydney

Well to be honest I can see where isk8junkie is coming from.

I watched Nationals and Allie was a stand out, an absolute stand out, to see the marks (I have really only just looked at them) I can't believe that they were that close

and that Tina beat Allie in the long OMG I didn't realise that
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I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

isk8junkie · Mastering Loop Joined: 20 Jan 2009 Posts: 37

kwillyau I do understand your point! However as I stated it is just MY opinion! I still feel there is room for manipulation in the program component marks. Allie stood out and WAS capable and DID landed triple jumps, she was fast, confident and entertaining to a degree. Ok so she lacked the maturity of Tina but she skated better I felt and once again this is MY opinion she was undermarked and Tina was overmarked based on what they did on the night.

I'm no judge but WHERE in any international competition can a skater with ONLY double jumps place in the top 20??? If that were the case Tina would've qualified at every Jr Worlds and also at Sr Worlds for the free program.

I ALSO feel our skaters get a false sense of achievement here in Australia as what they score here in Australia in competition doesnt really come close to what they achieve on a international stage. The judging is soooo different. If you ARE a judge kwillyau it's not a personal attack on you and my aim isn't to offend. Sorry it's just my opinion!

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

isk8junkie - I am a judge but haven't judged at Nationals (only done trial judging)

. But I am also a skating fan and watch a hell of a lot of skating (probably watch more than most judges in Australia as every year I get DVD copies of Europeans and Worlds from overseas).

The argument you put though about Australian skaters getting higher marks than what they would internationally is true though for all countries. Generally you will find skaters score higher at their own national championships around the world.

Patrick Chan recently got 88 points for his SP at Canadian Nationals. It was a fantastic programme. But the general concensus is that he would have received a lower score if it was at Worlds.

My understanding is that National championships for international skaters do not count towards their personal best scores.

Analysing the protocol I posted links to, check the freeskating. Tina might have had more doubles, but she had a lot more base value elements (didn't incur negative GOEs). Allie might have had triples but she had more negative GOEs. Also Tina had 3 level 4 elements whilst Allie only had 1 level 4 element.

Allie, whilst attempting the harder jumps, only one of them really gained the full value of what it was worth. However the rest had negative GOEs. The 3 toe was also downgraded and was only worth the value of a 2 toe, and then incurred negative GOEs because it was underrotated.

Have a look at the protocol element by element and you will start to see where the differences are. That is why generally you will see a programme that might have clean doubles be placed ahead of a programme that has problem triples. Basically it is not how many triples you do but how well you do them. That is one of the risks you take skating under IJS.

Having said that I prefer Allie's skating to Tina's but Allie lost the FS on the technical, not the PCS. That is why I am suggesting to be careful using that as an example of using PCS to manipulate marks because it is not a good example.

And from a judging point of view, I can tell you now, when you are judging you don't care who is out there. You care about what they are doing and how well they are doing it. If they are not doing it well then you have to mark the GOE accordingly.

Hope that helps explain it.

icebabe · Joined: 23 Jan 2009 Posts: 1

Hi I’m new to this board. I’m very happy to see so many people having common feeling as me. My opinion is that under the new system, higher GOE marks will be rewarded to skaters for the components they can do well, and higher PCS will follow through. If skaters at senior level skate all doubles in the competition, most likely they will perform well, not just the jumps but also other components, because the program is ‘easier’. The judges will give higher marks (both GOE and PCS) unintentionally just because it’s a better performance. So I completely agree with kwillyau’s point, judging doesn’t seem to be a problem. It’s really up to the coach and the skater as to what they want to achieve – play safe?

But is skating safe the correct education to our young skaters? I can see this our young skaters are following the same by skating conservatively. If they know that they can sure win by high level spins/spirals/steps/artistry but with low level jumps, of course they wouldn’t try difficult elements.

I’m disappointed to see no attempt of triple jumps by our national champions. Doesn’t matter whether it’s good or bad, just try it. You improve it by learning from the mistakes. Our past junior and senior champions, Cheltzie, Jo, Miriam, Stephanie…, all included triple jumps in their programs and did well internationally.

This is not a good sign and we will fall behind other countries in the international circuit in the long term.

Back to the original topic, in my opinion, we should send skaters who can do triples (and are willing to add them into the program) to represent us to the Worlds. How can we send a senior with only doubles? This is not even the novice standards in the US championships just past.

icecracks · Mastering Salchow Joined: 10 Jan 2009 Posts: 23

well the entries are out, going to next to impossible for any of our skaters to qualify from the short, some excellent skaters in the line up., but I am sure they will all give it there best shot. 56 girls and 52 men and 31 pairs

http://www.isufs.org/events/fsevent00011012

isk8junkie · Mastering Loop Joined: 20 Jan 2009 Posts: 37

icecracks wrote:

well the entries are out, going to next to impossible for any of our

Oz_Sk8_Mum · Moderator Joined: 22 Dec 2008 Posts: 151 Location: Sydney

Well I think Cheltzie CAN make the cut and I will have everything crossed in the hope that she draws well for the short program. There are a number of skaters who Cheltzie has beaten who are ranked higher than her because of the way the rankings are worked (ie. scores from the last three years and more international participation). If anyone in Oz can do it at the moment she can.
Sending positive thoughts...sending positive thoughts...for a good draw!!!

I think Mark and Greg and Danielle will have a great time at worlds and while I don't think they will make the cut heres hoping for PB's!!!
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I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

icecracks · Mastering Salchow Joined: 10 Jan 2009 Posts: 23

if you look at last years result, the women need at least 47-50, and the men about the same or a little higher, 52-55
Taken on performances at 4CC both ozzie skaters will need to aim for 50-52 points. This will mean that they need to come up with harder jumps like a flip rather that toe's or maybe a 3T + 3T combo, or in the mens case a 3A, and I am sure they are both very aware of this, and have been practicing.
To do this then need to go all out which is very risky and could end up at the bottom of the field if these jumps get downgraded for whatever reason. Don't forget the marking system is brutal on slightly off jumps.
Both skaters spins are very good with level 3 - 4 and steps are level 2-3, so it just comes down to the jumps and program components.
Look, I feel that all the skaters going to world's should be aiming to better their last performances at 4CC and I think they can, Mark was cronically sick at 4CC and pulled of a really good performance which can be improved on, and cheltzie also has room for improvement on her performance.
Both Mark and Cheltzie got 43, something, in the short and I think that they both could get arround the 50 mark if they have a very clean program, based on what they did at 4CC.
THE CUT is up to the proficiencies of all the skaters at this competition, all they need to do is their best.