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kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

I am interested to see what people think about adult skaters having their own separate ISA tests as opposed to the normal tests.

The USA have tests for adults and I think it would be a great idea to inititiate them in Australia.

My reason for this most adult skaters would only get so far with the way the tests are structured. A few I know get stuck on Elementary 2 and are unable to complete this test due to not getting an axel.

I know that many adult skaters aspire to get an axel but the reality is that they won't. So even though they may do the Elem 2 pattern, they won't get the rest of the test.

Maybe there should be a test stream structure along the lines of what is in the adult rulebook for competitions.

Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

flatcoat · Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 7

Umm... I'm sorry, but perhaps there's something I don't quite get! Why is it that you think that "the reality is that [adults] won't [get an axel]"? I ask this out of genuine curiosity. As far as I understand it, it's true that not that many adult skaters in Australia learn axels, but some do, and doubles at that! And as for those that don't, do you think it's because a) they don't work hard enough, b) they're not fit enough, c) they're too scared, d) it's harder to learn as an adult, given adult height, body shape etc, e) often the quality of coaching isn't as good, as sadly many coaches probably assume adults will never 'get anywhere' (where-ever that is!), and teach accordingly, or f) a combination of the above, or some other variable I haven't thought of?

As an adult skater, as far as I can see (apart from poor fitness, poor flexibility, poor co-ordination and posture, and frequent body shape issues, all of which can be addressed by the determined, and all of which also exist in the younger population), one of the big problems is getting enough time on the ice. As a child, you can go skating for several hours on a daily basis, and you get a big gold star next to your name, for you are being a good girl/boy and doing what's expected of you. As an adult, try to do the same and you are a neglectful parent/poor partner/misguided in your ambitions/lacking career focus, and so the list goes on! And of course the hours and the frequency have to be kept up over years and years - even more difficult for adults. Woops! a plumbing emergency. Woops! a pregnancy. Woops! lost my job and fell in to a financial/emotional hole. Whatever.

But if we were to address our issues - fear, fitness, body shape, co-ordination, posture, training, ice time - then - is there some other reason we should not eventually achieve to at least that sort of level?

And if not, then there's the answer: we don't get axels because we're fat, unfit, scared, stooped, badly taught and lazy!

And actually, looking at that, I'm really hoping there's some other 'mysterioso'-type reason for the lack of axel. But if there isn't, I'd say keep the tests as they are, and let us work on our issues along with everybody else!

Oz_Sk8_Mum · Moderator Joined: 22 Dec 2008 Posts: 151 Location: Sydney

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

Flatcoat - thanks for replying to the thread. Great to have your contribution. I would say that everything you have listed is exactly the reasons why adult skaters need to have their own competitions and tests or need to be considered differently from those younger skaters who are striving towards National or International level. I am not saying that adults shouldn't have Nationals as a goal in their skating plans.

I think all those reasons you have listed are really true and relevant. I don't think it has anything to do with a lack of desire.

But I have watched some adult skaters struggle with the axel for years and it seems no matter how hard they try it is just not going to happen. And even if they do manage to get from forwards to backwards, the technique is really dodgy and not very good. I admire and encourage anyone who does manage to get it. Thus even though they may pass Elementary 1 test and do the pattern for Elementary 2, they are stuck at Elem 2 test and there is nowhere further for them to go and they have only done half a test.

There are also physical barriers such as how the muscles gradually deteriorate over the years and the twitch muscle capability of an older skater is less than a kid. And to do those kinds of jumps you need to have some degree of muscle explosiveness.

So why can't we have another option for adult skaters rather than just the current ISA tests. It might just encourage more skaters to do tests instead of thinking that there is nothing out there for them.

Having said that about jumps though, edges and ice dancing could certainly give adult skaters a chance to work through the higher level tests. As a person working through my ice dancing tests, I have no desire to go to Nationals. But the tests give me something to work towards and strive for with my skating because I know sure as hell I cannot jump.

I am lucky I skate in a place where the adult skaters have really kept the sport alive in our state and we have important roles in the administrative side of our sport. So that is why I am throwing this out for discussion because I may very well put forward a proposal to ISA about consideration of this.

flatcoat · Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 7

Well, that reply has me in a state! Quickly did research on fast-twitch fibres and EE-GAD!! effect of age on them. And yes, you're right, oh no!, they DO tend to decrease in % with increasing age, but you can keep them 'happening', and presumably simply existing, by high-load-bearing, low repetition weight training, and good old plyometric exercises.

And no-one really gives an actual numerical sort of % decline by age. One study, for example, looks at sprinters between 18 and 84, but what happens to the 45 year-olds?

All this sort of answers the previous question of age - I suppose a 25 year-old will have more chance of impressive jumps than a 65 year-old, and as for the 45 year-olds: what sort of shape are you in?

As for me, I was heading off to the gym to lift weights anyway - best I stick to heavy ones, and buy myself a skipping rope while I'm at it!

Still not convinced about alternative testing, but it's been a very informative chat session thus far!

sk8er · Joined: 23 Jan 2009 Posts: 1

kwillyau - I have also seen many many CHILDREN struggle with an axel for years and never quite get it as well! It may take a bit longer as an adult but there is no reason we cant get it!
I myself have not been 'struggling' with the axel, but I have been 'learning' the axel, and it is exhilerating! I may not be getting there just quite yet, but the very thought that I will some day keeps me going. If I ever thought that because I am an adult skater I will never get an axel, what would there be to aim for. I have all my single jumps, I have all my spins, the natural next step is an axel and doubles.
I will not have a prouder skating moment when I do pass the Elementary 2 test - knowing that the test was not 'dumbed' down because im over 18.

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

Bunny Hop · Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:36 am Post subject:

I think people are getting sidetracked by the question of how difficult it is for adults to get an axel.

kwilly can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the suggestion being made is that there would be an adult test stream that didn't include an axel, just that the tests would be structured differently so that, for adults, the necessity of having an axel would come at a higher level test than in the 'standard' test stream.

Basically, from what I understand of the US adult testing system, it includes all the same elements as the standard track, but they are ordered differently for adults, so that there is a more gradual progression towards the harder elements. This means adults have the opportunity to pass more tests before perhaps reaching a plateau (or not, as the case may be). I also understand that the passing standard (theoretically at least) remains the same as for the standard tests. In other words the level required to pass isn't 'dumbed down' for adults, but the relative difficulty of the elements included at each test level mean they can get higher than they otherwise might. And as has already been pointed out, people wouldn't have to test in the adult track, they could choose the standard tests if they so wished.

rinkqueen · Joined: 19 Feb 2009 Posts: 8 Location: Sydney

Hi there,

I'm a (very) adult skater who took up the sport two and a half years ago...I have passed my preliminary and E1/E2 dance tests. I am hoping to achieve my E1 pattern and Primary dance passes late this year. Ultimately, my secret wish is to pass my E1 free skating test next year.

I'm in two minds about separate test structures for 'kids' and adults...on one hand, I wonder if I personally would have felt the same same sense of achievement if I had taken a scaled down test (i.e. been treated differently to everyone else).

Given the fact that I'm a masochist, I probably wouldn't feel the same way about what I have achieved and what I hope to achieve in the future. This is probably not the case for most adults but the current test structure is what keeps me motivated.

I also wonder whether a separate structure would accommodate the differences between talented adults (over 21's who have skated since childhood) vs we 'gumbies' who took it up fairly late in life)...maybe it's not an issue but it's food for thought.

On the other hand, I think that most adults need realistic goals to give them something to aim for. Adults are also a fairly cashed up group, so keeping us interested in skating is great for rinks, coaches and the sport generally. Thus, initiatives that promote adult skating are to be encouraged.

All the best with the discussion!
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katz in boots · Mastering Salchow Joined: 01 Jun 2009 Posts: 21

I know, a bit late in the day to answer. I do think there should be an Adult test structure, and for me it is the sit spin that convinces me. Axels, well I hope to, one day, and maybe even doubles.

It doesn't matter what jumps etc I can do, I will never pass E1 freeskate because the sitspin has to be so low these days. I can do sit spins, but I cannot get my hip lower than my knee.

It would be nice to have a little more I can achieve before I throw my hands up and say that's as far as I can go.

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flatcoat · Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 7

Umm, well, I can't do a sit-spin yet, though I'm working on it, but I'm wondering - if you don't mind me asking, is there something specific to adults that makes it less likely that we get one? I guess knee injuries springs to mind, but presumably if you had a knee replacement or a major cartilage problem you wouldn't be skating anyway, although I could be wrong here.

I mean, are we talking strength? limitations on joint movement? balance? fear?

Reasonably large numbers of kids don't seem to get them very low either, and I suppose they're usually the ones who don't take it too much further. Also, you imply it was different in the past, but I gather people didn't do so much with spins generally. Was a sit spin vastly different some years ago?

In my case my lack of sit-spin is lack of technique and lack of practice due to embarrassment at my lack of technique. Now, THERE'S a way to really get somewhere!

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

Overseas they do have separate tests for adults - US, Canada, I think the UK.

Also the grading of tests are different for adults with the standard lower for adults. There is a recognition via that it is more difficult for adults to learn to skate than it is for kids.

Being an ice dancer myself (working on Novice test at the moment), I know I am never going to be as good as skater as someone younger than myself. It doesn't stop me trying but I know what my limitations are.

Another consideration is the label "Adult test". Would having a test stream specifically for adults encourage more adults to do tests? I know there are a few adults who do Preliminary but I think many probably get freaked out at the idea because they think the ISA tests are mainly for kids. It is the reason why adult divisions and events like the Masters Cup came along because it made the adult skaters feel there was something for them.

When I started skating 16 years ago at 27, I had to compete against the kids if I wanted to compete. Which I did anyway but I was an exception rather than the rule. But I know if we didn't have adult divisions or comps then we wouldn't have many adult skaters these days. Because most freak out at the prospect of competing against the youger ones.

ETA - I have basically given up on sit spins. My knees can't handle them anymore.

katz in boots · Mastering Salchow Joined: 01 Jun 2009 Posts: 21

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

With regards spins, what you don't see anymore are classic positions. The skaters are required to do more with their spins now, including changes of edge in the spin. You don't see a classic layback anymore. And there a lots of blade to the head spins too. Thankfully they changed it a couple of years ago that a skater couldn't have every spin as a blade to the head spin.

If you want to see good spins check out a skater like Lucinda Ruh who you can find on Youtube. Amazing spinner. Had the pleasure of seeing her live in 98 at Worlds.

Under IJS skaters can still come up with original spins. But then what happens if everyone else then tries to copy them and not very successfully at that. So many spins end up looking the same.

Bunny Hop · Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:26 am Post subject:

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

They seriously have a teapot as part of the UK test stream?

I would be stuffed then as well because I have never been able to do them. And when I was doing sit spins I could never get them really low. Now I can't do them because of my knee.

katz in boots · Mastering Salchow Joined: 01 Jun 2009 Posts: 21

Okay, it's an elite sort of sport. But surely we want to encourage people of all ages to participate. I have seen young kids struggle to pass Basic 1 because of the dip position. If they can't do it, they're lost to the sport. Same with the sit spin position. Iif that's going to have to be that low, at such a low test level, then that cuts a whole lot of people of all ages out.

Sure they need to be able to do a low sit spin to be competitive at higher levels, but why do they have to be able to at low levels?

It isn't just the adults affected by putting teapots, dips and low sit spins in lower level tests.
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flatcoat · Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 7

Well, there you go! Am slowly getting an idea as to why adults don't do sit-spins so well, as two adults now have talked about knees! I can only presume you're MUCH less tight in the hamstrings than I am, otherwise how do you do up your shoes? I have pretty 'dicky' knees from early childhood, but it's still easier for me to get down low to do shoes up (into what's basically teapot position but without the leg stuck out - now therein lies the problem!) than bending down from the hips, because YOW the pain up the back of the legs! But I still maintain it's always been that way, for as long as I can remember, having been a child who couldn't touch her toes (I can now, though!).

And why do you think it is that adults have problems with back spins? I can really sympathise with this one, as I've been working on it for an awfully long time (well, 18 months or so), and unlike the sit spin thing it's not for lack of trying in my case, but wow, I still can't get it. I will, eventually, but it seems that many adults do struggle with it. Now why do think that is??? I don't think we can blame this one on fear, or height, centre of gravity or flexibility. So what is it?

There's a PHD in there for someone, but not me. Perhaps there's some vestibular-system thing going on, or perhaps it's psychological - control issues or something, I don't know! I've always assumed it's just me being stupid, but perhaps not. It'd be great to be able to do some sort of blood-flow analysis, or one of those heat/activity brain-scans...

Any ideas, anyone?

flatcoat · Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 7

Well, there you go! Am slowly getting an idea as to why adults don't do sit-spins so well, as two adults now have talked about knees! I can only presume you're MUCH less tight in the hamstrings than I am, otherwise how do you do up your shoes? I have pretty 'dicky' knees from early childhood, but it's still easier for me to get down low to do shoes up (into what's basically teapot position but without the leg stuck out - now therein lies the problem!) than bending down from the hips, because YOW the pain up the back of the legs! But I still maintain it's always been that way, for as long as I can remember, having been a child who couldn't touch her toes (I can now, though!).

And why do you think it is that adults have problems with back spins? I can really sympathise with this one, as I've been working on it for an awfully long time (well, 18 months or so), and unlike the sit spin thing it's not for lack of trying in my case, but wow, I still can't get it. I will, eventually, but it seems that many adults do struggle with it. Now why do think that is??? I don't think we can blame this one on fear, or height, centre of gravity or flexibility. So what is it?

There's a PHD in there for someone, but not me. Perhaps there's some vestibular-system thing going on, or perhaps it's psychological - control issues or something, I don't know! I've always assumed it's just me being stupid, but perhaps not. It'd be great to be able to do some sort of blood-flow analysis, or one of those heat/activity brain-scans...

Any ideas, anyone?

flatcoat · Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 7

Hmm,

Just looked up normal range of motion for knee joints: normal range of flexion is 130 degrees. Which would put the sit position well within the range of motion for most people, one would think! So, barring knee injuries, there doesn't seem to be too much of an excuse for the majority. Further ideas? I still think it's lack of confidence, lack of practice and lack of technique for most of us (without knee injuries). Whether young or old.