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kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

Apparently the federal government has changed the residency requirements for foreign born athletes from four years to two years. The athlete that this article is about is a short track speedskater.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,26010844-662,00.html

I wonder what people's opinions on this are. Particularly after the controversy surrounding an ice dance couple at Nationals last year where he was from Canada and she hadn't lived in Australia for many years. I know it was a very heated discussion and people had strong feelings about it. How would people feel about someone from say the US or Russia deciding that they would like to move to Australia and then want to represent Australia as has happened in other sports?

At this stage it is hypothetical but it could happen.

icecracks · Mastering Salchow Joined: 10 Jan 2009 Posts: 23

well, if the skater is such a shoe in for medals, why didn't her country try to encourage her not to take up residency in another country. I sure that Australia will NOT be able to give the financial support and Ice time that an athlete at this level requires.

Oz_Sk8_Mum · Moderator Joined: 22 Dec 2008 Posts: 151 Location: Sydney

Personally I don't think I have a problem with it IF..
The person will be living and training here with our skaters and under our conditions( not just using it as a stop over).
To have skaters of a higher caliber will only help add competition to our up and coming kids, hopefully they will push themselves.
But I see no benefit if the skater has no intentions of living here and giving back in the long term, and that was the problem with the dance couple from Canada it "appeared" they had no intention to live and train here and I think that was what got people upset
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magic thinkin · Mastering Flip Joined: 14 Mar 2009 Posts: 29

This topic raises a huge amount of dilemmas.

Firstly I believe the speed skater involved is on a full OWI scholarship.

For those who witnessed the improvement in Cheltzie at Nationals must be aware of the amount of time she has spent overseas training- this has largely been achievable to Cheltzie and her family because until May this year she was the only Figure skater in Australia receiving OWI scholarship funding. She has also had access to the NSW Institute of Sport where she has received one on one strength and fitness programming. So what we witnessed at nationals is what can be achieved with talent identification, sports physiology input and financial support.

Until May Danielle and Greg also received the support of the NSW Institute of Sport for their strength and fitness training. In May they were also given the services of an OWI acrobatics coach who worked off and on the ice to master those remarkable high level lifts they are now performing. They have also over the past year or so received several special funding grants from OWI to assist with specific training then in June they were granted funding, based on their improvement at World Championships, from the OWI to assist with their current training program in Vancouver.

Funding from the OWI is granted only on a four year cycle-just after the winter olympics skaters who have the potential to reach the level required to gain olympic selection are offered funding to assist with goals. This funding is linked to key performance indicators and is only paid when the goals are reached. Currently OWI fund figure skating to the tune of about $50,000 a year spread between all skaters. This funding will only increase when and if we see top 3 finishes at olympic level. For parents currently supporting up and coming champions will recognise that if this is split between more then a couple of skaters it barely pays the cost of airfares to get to the international training venues.

It is near impossible for any of our skaters to achieve the results required to be granted OWI funding without significant training overseas. Australia does not have enough high level skaters at any one venue to warrant segregated training sessions so that the high level skaters can train without the beginners, the ice dancers and pairs not having to constantly pull out of lifts and spins. When Danielle and Greg are at home they have approximately 45minutes a week of ice time to practice compulsory dances and lifts which are hard to train during busy sessions.

The skaters currently receiving OWI and NSWIS support are skaters who have been long term Australian skaters. Their parents have supported rinks and coaches financially over many years and all the parents have been involved in club and state organisations.

Perhaps the parents of our up and coming champions should consider how they would feel come the day that their child is on the verge of making top 20 at worlds and a skater arrives from overseas and is just above your childs level- that skater beats your child and goes to worlds- then receives the funding assistance that would have given your child opportunities you can't afford.

Cheltzie, Danielle and Greg are proof that do have figure skaters who can, with the right level of support, can continue to improve.

I have not mentioned the achievements made by Robert this season, he to has been overseas training but he has not received OWI funding.

Sure if the sports people coming here are going to be able to stand before our flag and declare themselves Australian and hold their heads up high for our national anthem they are more then welcome. If they are on the other hand, in our sport, figure skaters who are just outside the elite in their country of origin, therefore not privy to that countries funding grants, why should they be welcome. Many of them would not achieve standards any higher then our skaters training under the same condtions. Would our Aussie skate kids look up to these skaters the same as they do to skaters they have watched week after week in training.

Yes I have strong opinions on this topic but in the long term our sport can only be built to the level of sports like aerial skiing by following their lead and having a program of talent identification, world class coaches, trainers and training venues. We do not have that in figure skating. Our sport is mostly run by individuals who often have their own agendas.

Good Luck to the skaters travelling to Germany at the end of September and to all those skaters who will be being observed as potentials for the next round of OWI funding!

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

Magic thinkin - thanks for your very detailed and well considered response.

I thought that the standard of skaters was very high at Nationals and that is due to skaters like Cheltzie, Dani and Greg who have showed the benefit of the training they have received from overseas. If the government funding has helped that then it goes to show the benefit of supporting our home grown talent.

jwwebbo · Mastering Swizzles Joined: 23 Jan 2009 Posts: 11

I have not any problems with skaters coming from overseas as long as they hang arround and support the local scene. You have to be competitive on an International level we you may as well start at home.
For the record, my son Mark receives NO funding and is NOT affiliated with OWI or NSWIS even though he was 2009 No 1 ranked Male skater Highest placed Australian skater at Four Continents in Vancouver and represented Australia World Championships. He has trained overseas for 9 months last year and I can honestly say he has improved out of sight, one could feel a little disalusioned when athletes from overseas get funding and local do not. But this is not the case with figureskating, YET.
I honestly think that if there was more support for athletes like Mark, Robert and Nick that you would find that they would be more competitive on an International scale.
No wonder why we lose so many skaters due to the lack of support or when the Family's money runs out.

Oz_Sk8_Mum · Moderator Joined: 22 Dec 2008 Posts: 151 Location: Sydney

Off in left field a bit.. Then how would you feel if a skater came from O/S to be a partner for one of our own skaters?
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I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

jwwebbo · Mastering Swizzles Joined: 23 Jan 2009 Posts: 11

to your reply, say u had a daughter who was a brilliant pair skater and her partner was say just OK, with no sign of improving and there was no other male skaters she could pair up with in Australia. meanwhile your family is living on Vegimite on toast and have no support from your own associations or government.
So you go and look for another partner from overseas, and you find one from lets say Canada, and he is great, ( and can speak english) and you compete as Australian TEAM, you start winning International events and "presto", the government and association think your great and offer you scholaships and funding.
Well this is a cut down version, you will still be living on Vegimite on Toast, but you have given you daughter all the opportunities that she wants out of the sport.
Associations will benefit as all funding from governments are RESULT based. Hopefully funding will flow down the ranks to support development programs and such. ( we can only hope) !!!
Pair and dance teams do this all over the world, why should Australia be different. One of Mark's best friends in Canada is paired up with a English male skate and come 6th at Europeans skating for G.B, but they train in live in Canada. They still have to go back to G.B to compete at Nationals, and I suppose the local talent probably resents this, but, they have put the hard work in. So who's benefiting from this, well the skating association initially from increase funding from their government, the skaters do not benefit, they are still broke and following their dream. they might not be as good as the National Canadian Pair and dance teams but they are training along side and improving all the time.
As I have mentioned before, some of our top athlete get NO funding, but still pursue the passion for the sport and I feel that this is fundamentally gives the drive for better things ahead.
The sport needs to be seen, and our athletes need to be at the top end of the results, it's up to associations to help support if they can, but at the end of the day it lies wholly with the athletes TEAM. ( Family, Coach and the athlete themselves.)

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

I remember that pairs team from Europeans. They were great.

There is the current situation of a Novice Dance team of Adele Morrison and Eric Karnini who did win the Novice dance at Nationals but couldn't take the title because Eric is still US and can't be Aust yet. ISA are grooming them for international so we can have representatives at least in junior ice dance overseas. (Not sure how this works if he couldn't take the national title.) But when we don't have any other junior teams then it is not as if they are taking the place of anyone else.

magic thinkin · Mastering Flip Joined: 14 Mar 2009 Posts: 29

Sadly for Adele and Eric time is apparently running out age wise for them to get a junior international competition. Surely common sense should reign here a little- their over all mark at Nationals was 74.03- The couple who came last at ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Budapest, Hungary gained a total score of 92.45- surely sending them overseas to compete at this stage when they are well behind junior level internationally would be of no benefit to anyone. One has to wonder if they would not be wiser to use the funds to do a trip overseas to train- get themselves up to senior- then look at internationals.

At a time when we want Australia to be taken seriously in all disciplines within figure skating in the international arena thought should be given as to how well qualified they are to skate at a junior level. It was said at nationals that Adele had not passed her junior test so that is why they skated novice- do they invite singles skaters to compete internationally because their time is running out for age qualification regardless of skating skills- they don't. Perhaps its time to follow the rules that are in place.

I am aware these comments are my opinion but to often those closely involved with these situations are looking only at the small picture and fail to see the big picture. If we want ice dance to be taken seriously the couples going into international competitions need to have the skills proven by competition results. At this stage Adele and Eric don't have results. Its not always about just getting people into the competitions, it needs to be about getting skaters who can bring home some positive results.

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

Adele has passed her Novice test. She would be junior for a few more years but Eric would not.

Still I again think you have some very valid points.

rlee2002 · Joined: 20 Mar 2009 Posts: 9

Magic thinkin wrote:

rlee2002 · Joined: 20 Mar 2009 Posts: 9

Ooops sorry also neglected to add Sean Carlow and JoAnne Carter who were also listed scholarship recipients in this Olympic cycle. So in total 5 freeskaters and Danielle/Greg.

magic thinkin · Mastering Flip Joined: 14 Mar 2009 Posts: 29

Public funding is always an emotional topic in this sport. So little money is given to the skaters that those who receive it are often the subject gossip and misinformation. Not all skaters who are listed as receiving OWI assistance actually receive financial assistance.

Danielle and Greg were initially invited under the umbrella of OWI in May/June 2008 and at that time they were given a small grant to assist with coaching costs for training in Russia- this grant covered approximately 1/3 of their costs and they received another small amount when they achieved their KPI at Worlds.

They were given a "training grant" for their current training in Canada after preparing a detailed submission and costing breakdown. This is not ongoing assistance at this stage. The skating community often assumes that a couple training in Ice Dance have less costs then 2 individuals in freeskating- with 2-3 compulsory dances and a new original dance every season the costs build up.

To remain under the OWI umbrella skaters must show ongoing improvement and submit weekly, monthly and yearly training plans. It can be time consuming for the skaters and their coaches.

Danielle and Greg have been competing internationally since Danielle was 12 and Greg was 13- 2003 and despite their marks improving in every international competition they attended they failed to gain OWI recognition. They have been blessed in that by improving continuously they have received ISA bonuses as well as prize money from Four Continents.

The real shame in the whole program is the lack of public imformation about the funding, administration or even the selection process. Even when skaters are under the OWI umbrella it can become confusing regarding mixed messages given to the skaters.

It's great that Cheltzie, Danielle and Greg are receiving some funding towards their efforts to gain Olympic selection- ?Is Robert receiving any assistance?

I recall a NSWISA official making the comment many years ago that there is no charity in skating..........perhaps we need to keep this in mind when we consider that for skaters to gain OWI support their families will have already paid out much more then the skaters will receive in assistance. And we don't factor in the emotional and physicals costs.

jwwebbo · Mastering Swizzles Joined: 23 Jan 2009 Posts: 11

As I mentioned in my previous post that I am ALSO paying a small fortune for my son to compete at this level. yes it is very, very expensive and If anyone wants a full rundown I would be happy to respond. Any grant or funding from governing bodies would be greatly appreciated.
I really think that those parents of our elite skaters should get a real big pat on th back for some of the things they go through, some athletes will get funding and some won't, thats the fact.
It's result based, so with limited funding OWI and ISA will want to get the best return for the money, as they want to get future increase funding to benifit more.

I fund my son's training because he is my son and is trying to fullfill his passion, and nobody or nothing will stop that. He is a very determine to achieve his goals and I believe he will.
He feel's terrible that his sport puts such a financial strain on his family, but he rewards himself and us with his true determination and is dedicated towards his training and towards his University studies. He also coaches to help towards costs for future international training and Competition assignments.
If he said tomorrow that he was giving it away that would be his choice, but at the end of the day he has gained so much from the sport.
I am quite sure that the other parents of elite athletes feel the same.

As far as grants and such, I can only imagine the money received by OWI and NSWIS other government grants would only be minimal.
I do, however agree with magic thinkin the selection process needs to be a little more transparent, as I do not know, and my son does not know how selection is determined and he can't understand I really don't know why is not offered development through NSWIS but, them's the breaks
I think that being recognised by these bodies is probably more fulfilling for the athlete as we all know how very hard they train and give so much and really don't receive much recognision in return.
Cheltzie, Daniel & Greg have a good change to qualify for Olympics, and I wish them all the best, they will still have to work incredibly hard and have the skate of the lives to do it, but it's not the end of the world if they don't. They are young enough to be in a comanding position at the the next Olympics. They really don't need the pressure.
Robert or any Male skater for that matter, well, the points required are absured, you ony have to look at World Championships. I really wish him well and have a great experience.

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

I appreciate all the contributions to this thread. Particularly the parents of the Australian skaters. Your contributions are invaluable.

Having sat through a week of Nationals this year, my main thoughts I came away with was what an extremely difficult and hard sport figure skating is. Skaters spend hours and hours and thousands of dollars on training for very little recognition from the media, major sporting bodies and also very little financial assistance. It does really bug me that we are in such a catch 22, in that to get more assistance you need to get results, but how can you get results without the financial assistance. And you may be incredibly talented but in many instances the talent goes to waste because the support mechanisms are not in place to help that talent get to the next level. That is giving the skater the financial support from sources other than their parents having to shell out a fortune to help their kids realise their dreams and potential.

You all might remember the Skelton experiment - where they took some women from different sporting backgrounds because they saw it as a chance to get a medal because their were not a lot of competitors. My thoughts at the time it was nice but what about channelling some funding towards our sport which is already well established.

I hope what I have said makes sense.

BTW - just wondering what role the new Docklands rink may play in this. Seeing it is going to be the home of the OWI, have any of the parents here heard anything about what role it may play in skaters development once it is built? Will it be providing opportunities so skaters can stay in Australia and train instead of having to go overseas? Ideally what would you like to see happen in future?

Greg · Joined: 20 Mar 2009 Posts: 6 Location: Sydney

Wow OFF TOPIC.............

Back on topic for a little while. The Russian girl living and TRAINING in QLD has been in Australia since not long after the last Winter Olympic where she gained herself a Quaterfinal birth. I think her reason for coming here werent to gain all this funding and grab an easy stop on a national team. So anything along those lines isn't relevant in this instant like it was when the Canadian team came out.

The girl has also done here best to gain citizenship by joining th army reserves and other ways as well as living here long term. And they have changed the requirements from living in Australia FULL TIME for 4 years down to 2 years so for a foreign figure skater would have to live here for those 2 years without leaving to gain citizenship. Good luck finding many people not wanting to move to Australia for this.

As for financial support for these athletes if they are willing to time and become Australian (doing the hard yards within there sport within Australia) then i guess they should be looked at.

On the other stuff thats sort of off topic to the initial topic im not going to say too much, but i know Renita when it comes to OWI as a parent you know more then most.

And those who want to complain when it comes down to it unless one or more of us qualifies for the Olympics in 4 weeks then the OWI funding is going to be cut down. So is it fair that is riding on our shoulders for something that might benifiet your child mid next year when the new cycle begins?

Other then that im not going to say much else unless asked otherwise and if it is partical for me to answer. But people should get all facts and ask question or do more research before running off with what you think are facts.

kwillyau · Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 197

Hey as one of the moderators I don't mind if it goes off topic. I think in a way these things are somehow related (when it comes to skater funding). And it doesn't hurt to bring these things out in the open.

I really appreciate the parents and skaters clearing up misunderstandings and misinformation on this type of forum. You are the people that know the facts. I know it can be frustrating when you see certain things posted but as a person who doesn't necessarily know all the ins and outs of what goes on, it helps me understand the bigger picture. And from the perspective of a sport that adminstratively keeps itself as such a closed book, there is bound to be a lot of rumours and incorrect information that gets out there.

If anything whichever way the topic goes, it also helps keep the forum active and interesting which is good for Australian skating. That is not to make light of the issues. But we do need places where issues related to our national skating scene can be discussed.

rlee2002 · Joined: 20 Mar 2009 Posts: 9

kwillyau I do agree that it's ALL related. However, I'm not quite sure the point Greg is trying to make in the statement:

aussieSKATES · Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:18 am Post subject:

Back in March or so aussieSKATES talked with ISA a little bit about adding a sponsorship page to its featured skaters websites, based on the model created by Figure Skaters Online.

It's a shame nothing really came of it, because I know how hard the skaters work. It could have been another avenue for attracting private donations or sponsorship to offset the tremendous costs these athletes incur, especially when they need to train overseas to achieve their goals.